Talk:Emperor-Beyond-The-Sea

Trivia
"The Emperor is only mentioned in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, Prince Caspian, and The Horse and His Boy. In later novels, his attributes are embodied in Aslan. Whether or not this change was deliberate on Lewis' part, his status is unclear by the end of The Last Battle." (As of 5 March 2012)

Though much of this "trivia" is speculative and unfactual, the factual part is blatantly wrong. "The Emperor is only mentioned in..." The Emperor is mentioned in five out of the seven books, The Magician's Nephew (obviously) and the Silver Chair being the only exceptions. The only book that gives specific attributes to the Emperor is TLTWATW, but even then these are implicit. Prince Caspian gives the location of the Emperor, though this is already implied by his name (and the Lewis' maps). It's simple to say that the trait of "greatness" shifted trom the Emperor to Aslan in later novels, but this is too general and really doesn't justify what you said. Moreover, the implicit attributes given to the Emperor in TLTWATW, in my opinion, were negative ones, and were not given to Aslan in later books. At my own expense, I have collected all quotes mentioning the Emperor from all seven books. Refer to these if you disaggree with me. (Page numbers for version I have, idkbu)


 * I see both sides of this. From the quotes below, it is obvious that there is little (if any) fading of or change in the Emperor's role throughout the series, but it is an interesting and accurate statement that Aslan represents many of the attributes of God the Father. He both created and ended the Narnian world without any obvious help from the Emperor. Additionally, in HHB when Shasta asks the Lion who he is (for the second time), Aslan responds,


 * "Myself," said the Voice, very deep and low so that the earth shook: and again "Myself," loud and clear and gay: and then the third time "Myself'" whispered so softly you could hardly hear it, and yet it seemed to come from all round you as if the leaves rustled with it." (The Unwelcome Fellow Traveler, HHB)


 * This quote would appear to correspond to the whole Trinity, and in some ways it does seem as though Aslan embodies all three Persons. Perhaps Lewis did this for simplicity's sake; perhaps he wanted to emphasize the unity of the Trinity; maybe he did it unconsciously. Lasaraleen Tarkheena 23:57, March 6, 2012 (UTC)Lasaraleen Tarkheena


 * So the question is, who wants to tackle the major edit necessary? :D


 * I've overhauled the article, trying to be careful about what can and can't be said, especially since most of the important stuff about the Emperor is done through implication. If there's a better way of explaining Him, then let's try to get it right. -- xensyria T 14:12, July 23, 2012 (UTC)

Quotes
The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe

"Aslan a man!" said Mr Beaver sternly. "Certainly not. I tell you he is the King of the wood and the son of the great Emperor-beyond-the-Sea. Don't you know who is the King of Beasts? Aslan is a lion - the Lion, the great Lion." [30]

A few minutes later the Witch herself walked out on to the top of the hill and came across and stood before Aslan. The three children who had not seen her before felt shudders running down their backs at the sight of her face; and there were low growls among all the animals present. Though it was bright sunshine everyone felt suddenly cold. The only two people present who seemed to be quite at their ease were Aslan and the Witch herself. It was the oddest thing to see those two faces - the golden face and the dead-white face so close together. Not that the Witch looked Aslan exactly in his eyes; Mrs Beaver particularly noticed this.

"You have a traitor there, Aslan," said the Witch. Of course everyone present knew that she meant Edmund. But Edmund had got past thinking about himself after all he'd been through and after the talk he's had that morning. He just went on looking at Aslan. It didn't seem to matter what the Witch said.

"Well," said Aslan. "His offence was not against you."

"Have you forgotten the Deep Magic?" asked the Witch.

"Let us say I have forgotten it," answered Aslan gravely. "Tell us of this Deep Magic."

"Tell you?" said the Witch, her voice growing suddenly shriller. "Tell you what is written on that very Table of Stone which stands beside us? Tell you what is written in letters deep as a spear is long on the firestones on the Secret Hill? Tell you what is engraved on the sceptre of the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea? You at least know the Magic which the Emperor put into Narnia at the very beginning. You know that every traitor belongs to me as my lawful prey and that for every treachery I have a right to kill."

"Oh," said Mr Beaver. "So that's how you came to imagine yourself a queen - because you were the Emperor's hangman. I see."

"Peace, Beaver," said Aslan, with a very low growl. "And so," continued the Witch, "that human creature is mine. His life is forfeit to me. His blood is my property."

"Come and take it then," said the Bull with the man's head in a great bellowing voice.

"Fool," said the Witch with a savage smile that was almost a snarl, "do you really think your master can rob me of my rights by mere force? He knows the Deep Magic better than that. He knows that unless I have blood as the Law says all Narnia will be overturned and perish in fire and water.

"It is very true," said Aslan, "I do not deny it."

"Oh Aslan!" whispered Susan in the Lion's ear, "can't we - I mean, you won't, will you? Can't we do something about the Deep Magic? Isn't there something you can work against it?"

"Work against the Emperor's Magic?" said Aslan, turning to her with something like a frown on his face. And nobody ever made that suggestion to him again. [52-53]

The Horse and His Boy

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">He turned and saw, pacing beside him, taller than the horse, a Lion. The horse did not seem to be afraid of it or else could not see it. It was from the Lion that the light came. No one ever saw anything more terrible or beautiful.

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Luckily Shasta had lived all his life too far south in Calormen to have heard the tales that were whispered in Tashbaan about a dreadful Narnian demon that appeared in the form of a lion. And of course he knew none of the true stories about Aslan, the great Lion, the son of the Emperor-over-the- sea, the King above all High Kings in Narnia. But after one glance at the Lion's face he slipped out of the saddle and fell at its feet. He couldn't say anything but then he didn't want to say anything, and he knew he needn't say anything.[61-62]

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">Prince Caspian

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"Then in the name of Aslan we will wind Queen Susan's Horn," said Caspian.

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"There is one thing, Sire," said Doctor Cornelius, "that should perhaps be done first. We do not know what form the help will take. It might call Aslan himself from oversea. But I think it is more likely to call Peter the High King and his mighty consorts down from the high past. But in either case, I do not think we can be sure that the help will come to this very spot -"

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"You never said a truer word," put in Trumpkin.

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"I think," went on the learned man, "that they - or he will come back to one or other of the Ancient Places of Narnia. This, where we now sit, is the most ancient and most deeply magical of all, and here, I think, the answer is likeliest to come. But there are two others. One Lantern Waste, up-river, west of Beaversdam, where the Royal Children first appeared in Narnia, as the records tell The other is down at the river-mouth, where their castle of Cair Paravel once stood. And if Aslan himself comes, that would be the best place for meeting him too, for every story says that he is the son of the great Emperor-over-the-Sea, and over the sea he will pass. I should like very much to send messengers to both places, to Lantern Waste and the river-mouth, to receive them - or him or it." [35-36]

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"Well - he knows me," said Edmund. "He is the great Lion, the son of the Emperor-beyond-the-Sea, who saved me and saved Narnia. We've all seen him. Lucy sees him most often. And it may be Aslan's country we are sailing to." [39]

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">The Last Battle

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in">"Begone, Monster, and take your lawful prey to your own place: in the name of Aslan and Aslan's great Father the Emperor-over-the-Sea." [56]

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">===Significance===

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Seeing that the Emperor-over-the-Sea represents God, I would think that this article bears some priority.

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">98.246.87.37 04:24, March 6, 2012 (UTC)

<p style="margin-bottom: 0in;">Is he actually a Lion like Aslan himself or is he another species?
 * C.S. Lewis never mentions it (read above for everything he did write), but I think it's supposed to be like Christ and God the father: Aslan takes a physical form in the world (at least, when he needs to), but the Emperor I think dwells beyond space and time, and "beyond-the-Sea" implies this in the same way that we talk about God being in "heaven" (i.e. the skies). -- xensyria T 00:21, August 6, 2012 (UTC)

Tense Problems
Right now, this article's tenses are awkward and inconsistent. The main problem is that--in universe--the emperor still exists. Should it be consistently past tense, or present when it still applies today? What do you guys think?Lasaraleen Tarkheena (talk) 20:40, September 16, 2012 (UTC)
 * I think we should handle this one the same way as Aslan: present tense in description, past tense in action.